Beyond Freedom And Dignity

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER SIDDHASWARUPANANDA PARAMAHAMSA: That's not the point (spoken quietly). You are a machine; you are a complex computer robot. This is what many people, very influential powerful people, want you to believe - that you are just a computer robot. One of the ways that they try to convince you that you are a computer robot is by trying to convince you that computer robots are persons. Once we accept that computer robots are persons then we will also have to accept that people are computer robots. If computer robots equals people then people equals computer robots, right? Now the question is this, why do so many people want to convince us, want to convince you that you're just a computer robot? Why does anyone want to convince you that you're just a computer robot?

AUDIENCE: To control you.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes, go ahead.

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: Well, they want to treat us like robots and if we believe that we are robots then we'll just accept being treated that way.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes. There are many people in the world who want to treat us as if we are things, as if we're just machines. They want to manipulate us, use us as if we are simply computer robots. This is how they want to treat living beings. Let me quote to you, this is from the American Medical Association. This is their definition of genetic engineering: "The production, or better, the biological manufacture of a human being to desired specifications." Many people want to manufacture living beings, including human beings, as if they are computer robots. In the same way that they have a computer robot factory, they want to have a people factory, you see? You understand this? They want... there are people in the world who are insane. (Laughter) You have to understand this. I'm not insane and you're not insane but it doesn't mean that there's not insane people.

This is from Omni magazine, a popular science magazine, right? Everybody loves Omni, the new wave people, the future people, the in people, right? The intelligent people, right? The cool people. "In the long run, the robots that will take over the world will probably not be anything like the tin men we see in the movies. They may not even look much like R2D2. They'll probably be much like us, but better." (laughter) So try to understand here. You may think, oh maybe they're referring to real perfected steel/plastic robots. You know, like maybe a perfected androbot. You know, with the smaller screws and finer plastic. But that's not what they're talking about at all. Let me continue the quote here, "They'll probably be much like us, but better. The scientist, Grossman, says on the future of robots, ‘I think we're fighting an uphill battle in trying to make computer robots control... in trying to make computers control robot limbs.'" Okay? In other words a computer robot is basically a machine that's got little fake arms or little fake wheel legs or whatever it is right?

AUDIENCE: Yes.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: So right now computer scientists are trying to perfect computer robots by making it so that a computer can control these robot limbs, okay, and get them so they walk or they move or they hold onto glasses, you know, and they... but they're having a hard time. You know, when they try to get... they try to create a computer robot. They try to create a robot with plastic hands or steel hands or whatever to hold onto a glass, you know it just, crash, you know, (laughter) it just crushes it, you know. Or to maybe, you know, take care of the baby, you know. It just of sort of goes like this, and, you know, crunch the poor kid's head, you see? (Laughter) So they're having a hard time with the sensitivity of these plastic robots, these computer... these plastic computer robots. So this, he's saying, is an uphill battle, okay? He's saying, "I think..." quote, "I think there's another potential solution. The molecular biologists," okay, "can find ways of manipulating genes and they could make biological machines that could do the same thing in the long run. I put my money on them if ethical concerns don't prevent that line of research," unquote.

So here you've got this so-called scientist sitting there talking about how it's... how we're having a hard time getting, you know, computer robots to control limbs or computers to control these robot limbs. And this guy is saying, you know, well I put my money maybe into another industry in the future, you know? In other words the future may be in biological machines. Biological machines that are even better than people. What they're really dealing with here, what they're really referring to here is human computer robots. What are human computer robots? They already believe we are human computer robots. But they want to be able to create them in factories somehow. In their little world of the lab, you see. They want some kind of credit to be able to manipulate, so they can have people factories and, you know, whatever; who knows what all the things they've got in their minds. The genetic engineers are a strange lot, okay? (laughter) Those who want to perfect human beings through genetic engineering are a strange bunch, okay. But they sit around and talk about it like this, you see. You know, "We're having a hard time getting these computer robots, made out of tin and plastic, to do these things. In the long run I'd put my money on the biological machines. You see we can do... perfect those by manipulating genes. As a new industry." But ethical concerns are present. So he says, "If ethical concerns don't prevent that line of research." Now we all know that any good scientists, any good scientist does not accept any barriers to research. (laughter) In other words he's not talking about himself feeling ethical concerns, right? When he talks about ethical concerns, what is he talking? He's not talking about ethical concerns, he's talking about people who have ethics. (laughter) Who are concerned, right? And they say, "Hey man, don't do that! You're not supposed to do that! That's wrong!" And they go, "Oh no, another bunch of," you know, "superstitious... just the masses, the ignorant masses," you see. (laughter) So if people with ethical concerns don't prevent that line of research, okay. He doesn't even consider the possibility of himself having ethical concerns and not preventing that line of research, you see. It's someone else. Scientists don't have such things because ethics are not scientific. Feelings and morals, philosophy, it's not science. It's not hard science. So what else do we do with robots? How else do we treat robots? In a way that we would not like to be treated. That's one way, right? In other words we don't particularly like the idea of there being human computer robot factories, okay. Manipulating and creating and building and taking apart and, you know, when they get old you throw them away and you get a new model, right, or whatever. We don't like that idea, okay. What else, what other way don't we... in ways that we treat computer robots that we don't like treating human beings or that we don't... huh?

AUDIENCE: ____________________

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes, go ahead.

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: My husband, he's a computer programmer and he's being doing it for... he's been doing it for three or four years. He's become addicted to it.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Computer robot programming.

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: All kinds of computers. And the more he gets into it the more often he comes home and treats me and the children like we're computers. Commands and just that... cut and dry.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Programs you.

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: He would like to. (Laughter)

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: That's a problem. A lot of people are having that problem now. They call it program... what do they call them? Computer widows. The husband comes out and says, you know, "Bring me my coffee," you know, and she says, "I'm busy," and he goes, "What? What?" You know, "You used to..." You're used to dealing with the robot, (laughter) you know, or the computer and it doesn't say, "No," or, "I'm tired," or, you know...

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: Oh he admits that, you know, he feels impatience. You know, when he first comes home, especially just that first coming home, he feels impatience because all day he's working with the computers and he gives a command, the computer responds instantly.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes.

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: And then he gets in to making all these programs and ...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: But you don't like it, right?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: Well he goes deeper and deeper and he feels power and he starts feeling like he's the master and he's creating this...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes, but you don't like it.

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: No. (Laughter) And then he comes home and, you know, the work's over, he drives home...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: So you don't like being treated like a robot?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: Well we are, you know...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Right? What do you do?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: Well I say, "Hey, we're not computers. We're not robots," and...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: "Hey, I'm not a robot. I don't want to be treated like a robot." How do we want to be treated?

AUDIENCE: Like people, with respect.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Like people with respect. I want somebody to be... to treat me with respect as if I am a real person. A person with intelligence and, you know, feelings and a will of my own, you know, and I want to feel... Every one of us, we want to feel that we have the freedom to do or not do something. Otherwise we're not doing that out of love. Especially in a relationship of a husband and a wife or two friends or, you know, this kind of relationships. With the government and the taxes and things like that, you know, we... you know, we (laughter)... we don't necessarily are doing it out of free will. We're doing it because, you know, we don't want to go to jail. (Laughter) But especially in relationships, you know, where there's love involved, friendliness involved, you know, we want to be able to say, or we want to be able to have that freedom to do that; otherwise it's not really service, it's slavery. It's not really a gift, yes? It's not really any kind of... right? It's not a real... it's not a... it's not an offering... it's not a relationship. It's just a robot and then the person programming the robot. But we don't like being treated like robots. We like being treated as if we are persons who have a degree of free will and some intelligence and so on, you see? And this is some... this is what being human is, you see? This is where we find our happiness really. You know, we can't be happy being slaves. That's what slavery is all about and freedom is all about, right, you see. But the question is, we don't like being treated as computer robots, but why? Someone might ask why, in other words. Why don't you like being treated like a computer robot? We know that we don't like being treated like computer robots, but why?

AUDIENCE: Because we're not computer robots!

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: We're not computer robots. Yes?

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Yes, because we're not computer robots and there's actually a fundamental difference.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: What's that?

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Well, like...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Wait, wait, wait, wait , wait... You say there's a fundamental difference.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Um hum.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Okay, what?

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Well we've got our own free will and it's like... my body is like a machine.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: No, no, just, just... okay. This is the point. If you say to me there's a fundamental difference then I have to say to you what we know from science and that is that this thing here, man, I mean we can build one like this. It's a arm. We can get a robot arm, right? (Laughter) It's a machine, right? And this thing in here. (Laughter) There is one in there. That is a very complex computer and this complex computer, the brain, okay, it controls the body, right? So you've got this complex computer in this robot machine and it's just more complex and more sophisticated than, you know, the ones made out of tin, the ones made out of plastic, the ones made out of steel. This is what we're being told, okay. Now you're saying there's a fundamental difference and I'm saying well wait a minute why aren't, you know... You're a computer robot in this sense.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Yes, well.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: This is what we are.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: __________ It's true in a sense because my body is like a machine.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: And I use the machine and everything, but the thing is, is that, the difference is that I'm apart, I'm different from my body. I'm not my body. And like I can use this machine and it's a possession of mine and a...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Right, right, right that's the point. That's an important point. Eccles and Penfield, both neuroscientists, they both fully appreciated that the brain is an extremely important computer, unbelievably sophisticated computer, and the body is like a robot body, right? But Eccles' point, as his point is, he says it in this way, he says that, the person, the self, is in the driver's seat and he is controlling this computer. In other words your brain is a computer but you aren't your brain, you see? Your brain is a computer but you are not your brain. You are the user of your brain. The brain is a computer and you are the computer programmer. Penfield came to the same conclusion, that a person is the programmer and operator of the brain, which is a computer, and that the person, the self, is not the body but is a non-material spark, a non-material entity - a spark of God or a spirit soul or the self or an atma or whatever word we want to use. As you're expressing here, that a person is not his body. That I'm not my body. My body is a machine. My brain is a computer but I am the user of this computer. I am the person within this body using it, right? This is what makes us distinct. You look at a computer robot, there's no one in it, okay. There's no one in a computer robot and if there's a programmer of the computer robot, you see, there's an entity there. In other words a human being programs a computer from somewhere else. Sometimes you see these, you know, these computer robots, they try to trick people into thinking there's no one programming them or no one operating them, you know, and they sort of go around in circles, you know, or say things or whatever. But there's some guy back there or who previously who programmed it or who's operating it, you see. So similarly this computer robot that we've got here, this human body, including the brain, it is a type of computer robot machine. It is a machine, but within this machine is a self, is a person, that's you. You are the person within your body, programming it, operating it, using it, directing it this way or that way. It doesn't mean you have complete free will or complete control, but this is a most important distinction here.

Yes?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: What are the symptoms of the presence of a person in a human body? What are the symptoms of... if you can't see the person.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: You want to know why we say there's a person in a human body but there's not a person in a robot body?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: Right, because you can't see the person.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Well, we've gone... that's another talk. That's a thousand symptoms, but the main two symptoms; one is, you can experience yourself, number one: and that is self awareness. I exist, I am. I'm aware of my existence. Awareness. A computer robot has no awareness. Now some people say, well... they admit that computer robots don't have awareness but they say, well it appears like they do and since it can appear like they do, since they have complex behavior then maybe there really is no such thing as awareness. Maybe it's just an illusion created by complex unpredictable behavior. But what nullifies that ridiculous argument is our own experience of our own awareness. Now although experience of one's own awareness is not verifiable by any scientific instruments and it's not verifiable by anyone else - no one can directly experience my experience of self-awareness, that I exist - it doesn't mean it's not real, okay? That's number one. Awareness. There are symptoms of awareness also. But in addition to awareness there are certain symptoms of the presence of life force, of life. Growth from within, metabolism. These... matter held in a very complex state. Reproduction, ability to reproduce. These are some of the symptoms of the presence of a spirit soul or a spark of God in the body. Now our point is that, point is that there is a spark of life force or life particle who is aware and who has a degree of free will. Who is within the body. Who is not the body and who does not like being treated like a computer robot because he's the controller of the body, you see, and if somebody else wants to control it then, you know, hey, that gets in my way, okay. So?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: So are... is this the reason why so many people are against genetic engineering and things like that?

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: What's the reason?

WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: That there is a person who doesn't...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Yes, yes, yes. Because they don't want... you know, it's not your right to be screwing around with my property, you know, or any other living being's. We have respect for life. We respect the living and we respect the free will of a living entity in the body, you see? So this is what they have to overcome. Which is what you're going to ask next, right? That's what they have to overcome. They have to overcome... those who want to treat us like computer robots have to overcome this, this feeling that we have that life is distinct from matter and life is sacred and that, you know, non-life things are different from the living. That life is a fundamental distinction between life and non-life. They have to, you know, try to get rid of that. They have to overcome that. It's a barrier and they have to overcome this feeling that we have that there is, you know, something's wrong with manipulating for example human beings, human organisms, like in genetic engineering, you see? We don't like the idea of people factories, okay? We don't like this idea. So what they have to do is they... they have to convince us that there is no distinction between the living and the non-living in order to overcome these ethical protests. For example, the Supreme Court case where they decided the genetic engineering industry knew that they had to, in order to get the freedom to engage in the manipulation of genetic... of living organisms, genetic engineering, to have the freedom that they want, they knew that they had to get the right to patent living organisms. To have ownership. To be able to market and manipulate and control living organisms. So they ended up taking it to court and they convinced the US Supreme Court that there's no distinction between life and non-life and therefore the patent law should also apply to living organisms and they won the case. The Supreme Court accepted. It says, "Yes, life is largely chemical. There's no difference. There's no need to make a distinction between the living and the dead." So their reason behind trying to convince us that there's no distinction between life and non-life or that life is material in origin and essence is because they want to be able to treat living organisms in the way that they treat non-living organisms, you see? And right now we have this superstition that there's a difference between the living and the non-living, you see? That's what they have to overcome. Yes.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Well, I kind of agree with the Supreme Court decision. I don't think there really is any difference. It's just more complicated chemicals and I ... you seem to be disagreeing with B F Skinner, who's the most renowned behaviorist, etc...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: He's nonsense.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Well, you know, he said, he said directly...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: His book very nicely... it's B. F. Skinner, those who don't know. Most well known behaviorist in United States, right? In the world. The name of his book is ‘Beyond Freedom and Dignity'. Beyond freedom and dignity. Oh go on, go on.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Well, he said directly that the whole problem is that we have this illusion that there's some person there when really it's we're just very complicated and awareness comes from this complicated combination of chemicals and stuff and that we have to get rid of this illusion.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: Right, right. B. F. Skinner says that there's no one in the body. It's just an illusion. That his whole book ‘Beyond Freedom and Dignity' tries to destroy the belief that there's someone in the body, okay? So their whole idea is in order to be able to control us better they have to tell us that we're not in there. (Laughter) We don't have any free will at all. In the first place there is no self in the body. You, who are now in your body, looking at this television set through those eyes, don't exist. You who think that you can stand up and turn off the TV, you don't exist. (Laughter) You who think you have some free will don't even exist. What to speak of your not having free will, you don't even exist! How can you not... how can you have free will? How can you be free? What is freedom? Freedom means that there's a self who feels free and he's able to do or not do things, right? He's... he has some freedom. There's someone there, but they're saying there's no one in the human form. It's just an empty machine like a computer robot. So this is how they try to take away our freedom. By convincing us that... I mean, you know, somebody tries to take away my freedom. They have to convince me that I have no free will, that I am just a computer robot and if they can convince me that I'm just a computer robot then I tend to accept being treated like a computer robot. I tend to accept that. So they have to convince me, that number one, there's no one in the body. There is no spirit soul in the body who has any semblance of free will at all, okay, and there is no distinction between life and non-life. This is their whole goal. This is the purpose of B. F. Skinner's book ‘Beyond Freedom and Dignity', to convince us that there is no difference between life and non-life and there is no self in the body. And by convincing us in this way then they make it possible for themselves to engage in more manipulation. The aim is manipulation. You have to accept. What is your point?

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Well I would think _____ all too negative because...

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: What, what's too negative, me?

MAN IN AUDIENCE: That you're being a little bit too negative about these people because they may be trying to manipulate but if there's no... you know, like if they're really right about there not being a person there then this manipulation is justified for the survival and they're probably trying to create a better world.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: They are trying to create a better world. For them. (Laughter) A world where they are controlling. You notice how nobody has free will but them. Nobody has the ability to control but them. Everyone should be programmed but they're going to be the programmers. Who's going to be on top in Skinner's world? Who's going to be the one who's programming everybody else? Who's going to be the one to make the decisions on how we should create our society in order to program ourselves? You see. Just the people on the top, okay. There's always a select few, you see, who say that their method is the best and they're going to be the ones to do it, you see. So they are going to improve the world by taking away our freedom. The... their goal is survival. The ultimate aim of it is survival. In order to survive we have do away with our freedom and our dignity. But you see the roaches are going to survive. Even if there's... even if there's a nuclear war the roaches are going to survive. Where's the question of survival? Someone's going to survive, okay? The point is not survival. The point is actually achieving the goal of human life. What is the goal of human life? This is what these people fail to consider. They don't know who they are. They think they're just a computer robot. What is the goal of being a computer robot? If you don't know who you are, what's your goal of life? We ran out of time. Consider these things. Thank you very much.

JAGAD GURU CHRIS BUTLER: (talking with music in background): Animals eat and humans eat. Animals sleep and humans sleep. Animals mate and humans mate. Animals defend and fight and so do humans. But human beings also possess the faculty for enquiring into and understanding the Absolute Truth. Humans have a faculty for spiritual growth. Humans can ask, "Who am I? What is the purpose of my existence?" If we utilize this faculty for spiritual realization then we are truly human beings. If we don't, if we simply concern ourselves with eating, sleeping, sex and fighting, then are we not human in name only?